Comments on Mothers in Medicine: Friendship and Female Physicians

I've definitely had this experience. I think part ...

2010-05-15T00:33:53.997-04:00

I've definitely had this experience. I think part of it is how much time and attention mothers devote to their child's health care and choices. Inevitably, mothers take time and do research (whether it be internet searches, gossip or otherwise) and come to conclusions about what to do with their child's health choices-a prime example is vaccinations. I think it's pretty typical for a group of lay person mom's to share info, talk about these choices and have understandably strong opinions. How many times have you doc moms gotten stuck in a conversation about how conventional medicine is evil? Or how many times has the conversation turned cold when you're "found out" as a doc? I think part of it is how threatening it must be to have your own strong conclusions drawn into question in a format that is usually social, endorsing and equally informed. As a physician, it's our job to try and really weigh research, facts and make health care decisions. We may not always agree with the status quo in medicine but I think other moms fear engaging us in these conversations on the chance that we disagree with their decisions. I think often moms make different decisions for their kids (organic food or not, bedtimes, vaccines, etc) but to have the conversation with someone with a professional background on the subject is potentially threatening and let's face it-we moms mostly like to talk to each other so we can share about our own kids, decisions and experiences as moms.

I have this same problem as a professor. I'm so gl...

2009-12-02T12:57:35.260-05:00

I have this same problem as a professor. I'm so glad to hear someone talk about it! It does help to be friends with some of the wives of my colleagues because they are not freaked out by my job. And I have one very self-assured non-academic friend. But now that my son is in school, I really notice this when I meet the other moms on the playground or at school functions. Sometimes I say "I teach" but then they inevitably want to know where and the cat is out of the bag. I wish it weren't this way.....

I can relate. My only female friends for now are m...

2009-09-26T00:12:50.755-04:00

I can relate. My only female friends for now are my good friends from elementary and high school, university, med school and residency...since I've finished it's been impossible to meet new people. I just moved to a new city, the city where my husband is from so I have to make new friends. I just joined a meetup group for new moms but in my profile I purposely left out the fact that I'm a physician. The distant relatives in my husband's family (working moms like me) aren't too friendly to me, and whenever they speak to me, they ask about medicine, or they ignore it all together. There's no balance.
This situation is very real. It's unfortunate.

Amen, amen, amen! I think sometimes that I am evo...

2009-09-25T02:09:20.637-04:00

Amen, amen, amen! I think sometimes that I am evolving into a socially inept individual though the years preceding my doctorhood would tell me otherwise. My only absolute confidante remains my best friend from high school. There IS a shift in how people interact with you when you tell them you are a doctor. I tell my husband NOT to mention it unless asked in a social situation for this very reason. I generally try to avoid the topic. So sad.

I'm Anon 11:56 again. MommyDoc: You cracked me up...

2009-06-03T21:31:41.234-04:00

I'm Anon 11:56 again.

MommyDoc: You cracked me up because I really hate confessing what I do when I'm actually getting my hair cut! I don't go to one regular person, I move around to different places, and I avoid at all costs saying I'm a doctor then. I just don't want to get into that conversation when i am so trapped in the chair!

Interestingly I find that *partners* of doctors are generally OK. Friendships are still a bit odd but generally much more comfortable than "regular" people.

"L", you're right, I am comfortable with profs or PhD types as well. It's complex isn't it.

I'm not an MD, but a future PhD in Biomedicine. I ...

2009-06-02T22:49:51.854-04:00

I'm not an MD, but a future PhD in Biomedicine. I don't tell people what I do. I simply say that I'm still in school, and most people don't ask anymore questions beyond that. I don't have kids or a husband, but my main social venue is church, where every other woman my age is married and most have kids. I love kids, and I really don't mind when "hanging out" turns into playing with toddlers and getting puked on by babies. Still, I don't get invited much, and when I do join some of the other women, they are usually surprised that I could make it. I like laughing till I cry and cooking and baking and watching cheesy movies and eating chocolate. Yes, I work in a lab and do things most people only see on TV, but I'm a human being first and a scientist second!

One of me best friends (who, unfortunately, lives in a different town) says it's the education that's intimidating. Others are afraid to make a fool of themselves or appear boring. Really, by the time I head home from the lab I don't particularly want to talk about cell biology anymore, but people seem to think I'm not interested in everyday type of things.

Interestingly, I am completely intimidated by hair...

2009-05-29T23:50:21.504-04:00

Interestingly, I am completely intimidated by hairdressers. I am definately a laid back kind of person regarding my looks since I had #'s 3 and 4 children. So when I meet someone who is a hairdresser, I immediately try to remember when my last hair cut was (over 7mo ago), what kind of comfy (but slobby) looking shirt I'm wearing, etc. And since I never really learned how to put on make-up (I'm actually trying to learn now), I am intimidated by these gorgeous women who know how to get their hair perfect and their face beautifully and artfully done.

To Anonymous 11:56pm: I recently had a similar thi...

2009-05-29T19:57:32.033-04:00

To Anonymous 11:56pm: I recently had a similar thing happen. A mother of one of my preschooler's friends and I had been talking for awhile at the playground. At some point, jobs came up, and I answered that I work in a clinic (my version of getting around it vs. saying out loud. A whole other post, but people seem to assume I'm a nurse or manager if I just say I work in a clinic). She kept pressing me, and I finally admitted that I was a doctor. She "fessed" up as well to much laughter. How strange that after years of hard work and struggle and sacrifice, we achieve our goals of becoming a physician, only to feel a need to hide that fact from people. I am curious if other degreed professionals (i.e. lawyers, PhDs) feel a similar retiscience to admitting their profession to other mothers on the playground

T. I hope I didn't come across as saying that rais...

2009-05-29T10:18:14.018-04:00

T. I hope I didn't come across as saying that raising my kids doesn't matter! That is my most important job...unfortunately that one doesn't pay well - and when I referred to "having a job that matters" I was referring to my paid position producing junk mail at at advertising agency :))

I love this post -- it's a great raison d'etre for...

2009-05-28T23:56:06.645-04:00

I love this post -- it's a great raison d'etre for this blog as it would be hard to read & understand this on many other blogs.

Being in a bigger city helps, but I definitely still bend over backwards when meeting other moms to avoid saying what I do, for as long as humanly possible. And when I do "confess", I find I immediately try and minimize it "well, um, I'm a family doctor actually, but, you know, just part time, mostly I'm with the kids". I never know if it's me or them, but I feel it. They are freaked out.

A very funny moment came once last year when I finally had to confess to a woman I'd been chatting up for several months at a playgroup -- and she practically jumped for joy as she confessed that she, too, was a family doc and OMG!!! it was too funny.

I find it really hard. All of my previous friends are far away. It's lonely, you know?

I signed up for this online adopt-a-mom service wh...

2009-05-28T22:16:16.384-04:00

I signed up for this online adopt-a-mom service where this woman was giving me advice about breastfeeding. Several weeks later, she found out I was a doctor and totally freaked out and said she was afraid to say anything to me anymore.

However, the good thing about my job is that if someone asks me what I do, I can say I'm a physiatrist, which usually just confuses people rather than intimidates them.

Try being a psychiatrist who lives and works in th...

2009-05-28T21:56:09.924-04:00

Try being a psychiatrist who lives and works in the same small neighborhood!

I cannot have casual banter in the schoolyard. I have to listen first and gauge a situation before I speak. I am lucky though to have a few good female and male doctor friends as well as a few non MD mental health professional friends.

One other psychiatrist has a pool party every year called Shrink or Swim!

Heck, I frequently do not post some of my most interesting thoughts on the blog I share with Jay because I am concerned that nothing online is really private and mights just be forever.

Thanks, all - I feel less alone! Kathy - as for ...

2009-05-28T21:50:17.326-04:00

Thanks, all - I feel less alone!

Kathy - as for a "job that actually matters": no job matters more than yours, raising those adorable kids! Doctors can be replaced; you are irreplaceable.

Wish I could figure out how to get past this friendship barrier. It's not universal, of course, I know, but it seems prevalent enough...

I've experienced the same thing. People just act ...

2009-05-28T19:52:00.165-04:00

I've experienced the same thing. People just act weird when they find out. I try to avoid the question about what we do for a living. I've even lost friends that I had before medical school, despite my best effort. My husband says it is because they are intimidated by what I've accomplished.

It's strange how we work so hard for this, but in the end we lose so much.

I joined a choir right after I finished fellowship...

2009-05-28T15:55:25.764-04:00

I joined a choir right after I finished fellowship. There wasn't a lot of chit-chat time before or after rehearsal, but I felt friendly toward almost everyone. I clearly remember when someone (a man) at the Christmas party asked what I did for a living, and when I replied, he literally stepped away from me.

For years afterward I didn't tell anyone up front, and I found myself sort of keeping my distance a bit to avoid being asked. That didn't help me make friends. I did make friends at work - docs and NPs.

My husband had the same experience when he told people he taught physics.

I do have a several good non-doc friends now, mostly people I met through my synagogue, and I realize they're either academics with PhDs or they're non-doc clinicians (psychologists, mostly). The small-town issue pops up for me, too - just this week I sat at a meeting for shul and realized I couldn't comment on the issue at hand because my knowledge came from a patient's disclosure. Boundaries, boundaries...

I completely agree with your post, T. I have felt...

2009-05-28T15:27:50.575-04:00

I completely agree with your post, T. I have felt this "pulling back" time and again in my female friendships. Just this week I got a thank-you card from a patient (with whom I have a really great rapport) that said..."I wish you weren't a doctor, because then we could be friends!" Er, thanks?

I have only made one good, non-physician friend since I left residency. She is the only one who did not pull away when she learned my profession...everyone else stays at arm's length. Anyway, long comment, but basically, I am right there with you. What to do about it? I have no idea.

I sometimes feel self-conscious revealing that I a...

2009-05-28T15:23:17.287-04:00

I sometimes feel self-conscious revealing that I am a doctor to other would-be friends. I think it does change the dynamic for some - not all - but some. One time, a woman seemed to feel guilty for needing to take a smoke break in front of me (I'm not judging you!)--I can tell that there's some fear of me judging them like their doctor would. Another felt embarassed to be eating a donut in front of me. We do, like it or not, carry the weight of our profession over to our personal lives. I can reassure to this person that I really don't care about what she eats and am not keeping nutritional scorecards on everyone, but I'm sure those secret thoughts would linger. You can't be BFF with someone who doesn't want to do anything "improper" in front of you because you might think less of them.

There's a status element- real or perceived - that can get in the way. I'm very self-conscious about mentioning anything relating to material things.

I do still find new friends who are not threatened at all by my profession - I love this. I wish it were always this way.

A big amen to this post! Also to the comments abo...

2009-05-28T13:58:47.990-04:00

A big amen to this post! Also to the comments above - living in a small town as one of 3 docs makes friendships extrememly difficult. Not only do others act differently with me, I also have to be careful - what I say and who I trust - because of the small town dynamic. Recently one of my trusted friends (one of just two in town) moved away and it just all but crushed me - it's an empty feeling but probably why I'm out of town most weekends not on call to be with my friends from college/med school and family!

I absolutely agree that identifying onself as a ph...

2009-05-28T13:43:01.915-04:00

I absolutely agree that identifying onself as a physician changes the interaction between me and a potential friend. I have lots of friends from before med school, med school, residency, but not a single one from the more than a decade I've been in practice. I feel this lack sharply and can't explain why this is such a problem. I have tried to join book clubs and so on, but seem to run into an invisible wall. I have tried to conceal my profession but living in a small community, the word gets out. I wish I could understand this.

I'll comment since I'm in the "non doctor" group.....

2009-05-28T12:54:15.132-04:00

I'll comment since I'm in the "non doctor" group...

I can't profess to explain why this seems to happen, but I have caught myself doing it - ie: behaving differently once I find out a woman is a doctor when I meet her in a social setting - whether it be a book club or on the sidelines of my kids sporting events.

I don't know if for me it's a sort of awe! Because as a kid I wanted to be a doctor but for many reasons it didn't happen, and when I meet doctors outside of their offices...it's often hard to relate to them as normal people...and doctors who manage to balance that proffession with motherhood - now that is indeed an awesome accomplishment...

This may sound silly, and maybe it's my own self esteem issues, but it's like I almost don't feel worthy of actually having doctor "friends"...they are like another species that are far superior (even though I know you may all not feel this way about yourselves...some doctors sure act like they do...but that's another story)

Love this blog by the way, I hope you don't mind me lurking as I think you are all fantastic and it's like being a fly on the wall of what it's like to have a job that actually matters!